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forn03

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She's back:

http://www.myspace.com/jenniferknapp
NewMath

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It's about time!

willb

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Very happy to read this news!!


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DylanW

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I'm pretty surprised (in a good way) to hear this.

The "letter to fans" on her site suggests a lot going on below the surface. I wonder how that will translate into her new music.
WeighedDown

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I'm wondering if she'll ever address the elephant in the room.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeighedDown
I'm wondering if she'll ever address the elephant in the room.


Which would be?

I've always liked her.  One of the best artists to open for Jars.  As expected the new song on her myspace is fantastic.
trigger

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There was a lot of (fairly unfounded) talk about her leaving the music industry because she was a lesbian and she didn't want to have backlash from her fans in the CCM music world.

I'm not convinced that was the case at all.
DylanW

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Reply with quote  #8 
Hmm. Hadn't heard that. It's sad that a rumor like that would pick up steam.

I just meant that it seemed like there was a real reason behind it; maybe some sort of dissatisfaction with some part of CCM or the music industry in general.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trigger
There was a lot of (fairly unfounded) talk about her leaving the music industry because she was a lesbian and she didn't want to have backlash from her fans in the CCM music world.

I'm not convinced that was the case at all.


I had never heard this before and wish that was still the case.  Was it REALLY neccessary to post this 'rumor'??

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trigger

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Reply with quote  #10 
Well, I was posting it in reply to dunebug. Let it be understood, I'm not trying to propagate it. I don't believe it in any way, shape, or form. As I said, I'm not convinced that was the case at all.

As for wishing it was the case that you'd never heard the rumor, I don't know why it would have any affect on you other then causing you to think about how dumb some people can be.
willb

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Quote:
Originally Posted by trigger
Well, I was posting it in reply to dunebug. Let it be understood, I'm not trying to propagate it. I don't believe it in any way, shape, or form. As I said, I'm not convinced that was the case at all.

As for wishing it was the case that you'd never heard the rumor, I don't know why it would have any affect on you other then causing you to think about how dumb some people can be.


The disclosure of this rumor doesn't change my love for Jennifer knapp and her music.  My concern is that, by posting this rumor, it does a disservice to her.  It is idle gossip whether true or not.  It doesn't make me think anyone is 'dumb', but rather that if true, it is no ones business.  If false, then it may offend her.  Sorry, but I just felt the disclosure of this rumor to be inappropriate.  I realize that you meant no harm by it.

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worlds_apart

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Reply with quote  #12 

I honestly don't believe that rumor's true. I hadn't even heard it before I read this discussion. Like I said, I don't believe it.


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*Everything I say is MY opinion not solid fact.
clayhazelnut

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Reply with quote  #13 
Two things: her album, "Letting Go" comes out on May 11th.

Second, about that "rumor"... http://in.reuters.com/article/entertainmentNews/idINIndia-47665920100413?sp=true

I'm curious to hear what those of you who refused to believe the rumor think about this. And everyone else, I suppose. Personally, I couldn't be happier for her.
Coraso

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Wow I wasn't expecting that! I don't really know what to think, because my whole view of her kinda changed completely.


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citizenX

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Reply with quote  #15 
Wow! I was playing her cd's last week for the first time in a long time.
 
It was always apparent to me by her lyrics that she was no slouch in biblical literacy. And it's clear from her interview that she recognizes and understands the glaring incongruous discrepancy of being a lesbian ambassador for Christ.
 
She has re-defined herself as "a person of faith", which leaves it rather vague as to what she might still believe about her relationship with Jesus.
 
Apparently she has come out of a long identity crisis and has chosen not to play the hypocrite. And for that I commend her. Her new music will be Secular Adult Alternative, and I look forward to, not only hearing her again, but to hear the music of a Jennifer Knapp that is 10 years farther down the road. Should be interesting. 
 

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willb

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Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenX
Wow! I was playing her cd's last week for the first time in a long time.
 
It was always apparent to me by her lyrics that she was no slouch in biblical literacy. And it's clear from her interview that she recognizes and understands the glaring incongruous discrepancy of being a lesbian ambassador for Christ.
 
She has re-defined herself as "a person of faith", which leaves it rather vague as to what she might still believe about her relationship with Jesus.
 
Apparently she has come out of a long identity crisis and has chosen not to play the hypocrite. And for that I commend her. Her new music will be Secular Adult Alternative, and I look forward to, not only hearing her again, but to hear the music of a Jennifer Knapp that is 10 years farther down the road. Should be interesting. 
 


I read this revelation in her interview with Christianity Today.  (Which I thought was very well done and unbiased.)  I am relatively new to Jennifer Knapp as I just 'discovered' her music about a year and a half ago.  Her music has been a great blessing and will continue to be so.

I admit that I am on the fence about Jennifers admitance.  It has always been my understanding that homosexuality/lesbianism are not condoned by God.  Yet, I also understand that much of Christendom, in their condemnation, place same-sex relations and abortion as unpardonable.  As a matter of fact, I have read some negative comments towards Jennifer Knapp that say, pointedly, she is going to hell.  I find this kind of judgement very troubling.

The grace of God is for ALL of us and that includes homosexuals and lesbians.  In the parable of the sheep and the goats, Jesus doesn't ask anyone what their sexual orientation happens to be?  But what does separate the sheep and the goats is how they treated people.  Somehow, I think those spewing their judgement and condemnation towards Jennifer  maybe want to take a good, hard look in the mirror.


   


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willb

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coraso

Wow I wasn't expecting that! I don't really know what to think, because my whole view of her kinda changed completely.


Can I ask why it has to change??  What if Jennifer was your sibling??  If your brother or sister revealed they were gay; would you end your relationship with them?  Would your love for them end??   

This is presumptuous of me, but I don't think your view of Jennifer has changed.  I believe what you are experiencing is shock over Jennifers revelation.  Your mind is trying to wrap itself around what you just heard.  When you sort it out, I hope that whatever your view, it is one of love and grace.

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GuitarJark

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Reply with quote  #18 
Man, if only every CCM artist was honest about the things they do that the Christian world doesn't approve of and don't regret doing. Then we'd have a much more honest Christian music scene.

*served alcohol to the lead singer of Seventh Day Slumber, it was a Mai Tai, the man is clearly not a real man to drink that*


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haveapez

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Reply with quote  #19 
I am not going to judge her, but I am conflicted.  To many Christians, homosexuality is biblically pretty cut and dry.  I'm saying this about MOST people.  You may not agree.  I personally know a few Christians who are very serious about their spiritual daily walk (some even Seminary students) and struggle greatly with homosexual feelings.  What bothers me about Jennifer is some of her interviews that I have read.  Some of her remarks just trouble me.  I guess its for each person to make up their own mind. 

I pray we can all do that without attacks, etc.  I like this forum for that reason.

dunebug81

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Reply with quote  #20 
Blah blah blah...who cares, you are who you are. 

Is her new album good?  Having seen her several times with Jars in 02 I'm glad that shes back and touring again.  Hopefully I'll be able to see her when she comes to town.
guitarearl

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunebug81
Blah blah blah...who cares, you are who you are. 


Tell that to the rich man who refused to sell all of his possessions to follow Jesus.

The thing is, God is God. He's the One making the rules. It's His position to judge as He sees fit. I'm not going to condemn anyone, since I'm a sinner too. The Spirit leads us to repentance and turning from the sin He convicts within our lives.
Coraso

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Reply with quote  #22 

Just what I was thinking. I agree 100%. I think it's sad that so many people are ignoring the fact that homosexuality is a sin, just like murder, stealing, or any other sin. I think that the way things are going right now, we're becoming another Sodom & Gomorrah. God has never tolerated, and never will tolerate the perversion of what He intended to be something holy between a man and a woman. But, like guitarrearl said, I'm not going to judge anyone when I've also messed up a lot.   


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markius

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Reply with quote  #23 

haven't been on here for awhile and i just have to wonder if i have entered some alternate universe.  um - Bible isn't sorta clear about sexual activity (any kind) outside male/female marriage, it is shoutingly, glaring in your eyes like a headlamp on an Arizona road - it's sin (like so much else we unfortunately do) and although God loves the sinner he doesn't love or condone the behavior.  i do not believe a person can be in a ministry while openly and wantingly disobeying God's word.  If she chooses to be a lesbian, she should stop representing God through her music.  my take on it. 


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willb

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markius

haven't been on here for awhile and i just have to wonder if i have entered some alternate universe.  um - Bible isn't sorta clear about sexual activity (any kind) outside male/female marriage, it is shoutingly, glaring in your eyes like a headlamp on an Arizona road - it's sin (like so much else we unfortunately do) and although God loves the sinner he doesn't love or condone the behavior.  i do not believe a person can be in a ministry while openly and wantingly disobeying God's word.  If she chooses to be a lesbian, she should stop representing God through her music.  my take on it. 


Jennifer Kapp's new album isn't marketed to the Christian community nor does she claim it to be a 'christian' album.  As to her previous albums, truth is truth regardless of the messenger.

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Coraso

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by willb
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coraso

Wow I wasn't expecting that! I don't really know what to think, because my whole view of her kinda changed completely.


Can I ask why it has to change??  What if Jennifer was your sibling??  If your brother or sister revealed they were gay; would you end your relationship with them?  Would your love for them end??   

This is presumptuous of me, but I don't think your view of Jennifer has changed.  I believe what you are experiencing is shock over Jennifers revelation.  Your mind is trying to wrap itself around what you just heard.  When you sort it out, I hope that whatever your view, it is one of love and grace.


Well for one thing, I never said my love for her ended, and Jennifer Knapp is not my sister, so I would never love her the same way I love my siblings. However, I am still called to love her in a heavenly sense.  Her sexuality doesn't change my love of her through Christ, however I am disappointed.  Whenever a strong influential figure in Christianity does something like this, you just feel let down.  Let me kinda put it into perspective. It was recently exposed that a pastor in my town was having an affair.  Everybody lost a little respect for him, and understandably so.  However the church didn't abandon him just because he stumbled. They worked with him and encouraged him because it was their Christly love that shown through. I think Satan tries especially hard to bring down influential people in God's kingdom.  So that's what I meant. I'm dissapointed and let down, but I don't hate her or despise her or anything like that. 

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worlds_apart

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Reply with quote  #26 
I hate to say this but I did buy her album and it was great! I love "Mr Gray" but I couldn't keep it. It just bothered me. I couldn't get peace about it. Oh and I found it in the CCM section at walmart, which totally made me laugh. It's an alternative album people. 
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"We are people borne of sound. The songs are in our eyes. Gonna wear them like a crown. Walk out, into the sunburst street. Sing your heart out, sing my heart out. I've found grace inside a sound. I found grace, it's all that I found. And I can breathe now. Breathe now." - U2

*Everything I say is MY opinion not solid fact.
murlough23

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Reply with quote  #27 
I like this album. I support Jennifer and appreciate her bravery.
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DISCLAIMER: The preceding post was a statement of opinion, and does not reflect the views of the members of Jars of Clay, the moderators of Jarchives, or any member of the Holy Trinity. In fact, it is only my opinion that this is my opinion. In my opinion, you may choose to believe that my opinion is fact, if in fact you are of the opinion that you are allowed to choose what you believe, which presupposes the opinion that you do in fact exist in the first place - in my humble opinion, of course. It is my opinion that all of my opinions are humble opinions, but this does not indicate a bias on my part against opinions which are, in my opinion, proud opinions.
adrnik

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Reply with quote  #28 
I don't really know Jennifer Knapps music. Have seen her CD's in the Christian bookshops here but it never appealed to me but I did read the article by ChristianityToday.com on her.

Some of my thoughts.

Jesus was clear when he said that the whole of the bible has to be interpreted through the two commandments to love God and thy neighbour. Why do so many Christians make exceptions for gay people?

Secondly the 'proof texts' so many use on the subject have to be read through exegesis and put into correct contextualisation. There is a good argument that both texts were not addressing general same sex monogomous (sp?) relationships but using sex as a form of worship to pagan gods.

Lastly if God has made us in our image then are we born gay/hetrosexual or asexual and life informs our choices. If we are born how we are (as most gay people I know say) then maybe God is more accepting of our sexuality than we have been.

Ok I'm gonna hide now so the flak doesn't hit me.



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CadillacKincaid

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Reply with quote  #29 
I never really liked Jennifer knapps music, but I would put her newest cd in the top 10 albums of all time. She expresses herself so well in songs like dive in, letting go, and inside. Her voice seems so strong on this project too.

I was once very "hell fire and brimstone" towards homosexuality, but after hearing stories of Jennifer knapp and chely wright, I have seen a different side. All I cans say is that I have learned to love rather than hate. For some reason, Christians seem to be the most hateful toward other races, religions, and gays. It should not be this way.
murlough23

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Reply with quote  #30 
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrnik
Jesus was clear when he said that the whole of the bible has to be interpreted through the two commandments to love God and thy neighbour. Why do so many Christians make exceptions for gay people?

This is the one thing that I have never been able to get any of the homophobes to explain to me. What is special about this particular sin? Other than the fact that someone who is straight probably has a harder time fathoming how anyone would feel attracted toward the same sex, as opposed to other sins that we can probably relate to without too much difficulty, I can't find any evidence of its special status. What really baffles me about homosexuality is that out of all the things the Bible appears to describe as sin, it's one of the few that doesn't harm unwilling participants. Stealing, murder, adultery, envy, etc., are fairly clear in how they hurt someone who wants no part of it. Blaspheming God's name or having other gods before God, etc., has the likely result of giving God a bad name in the eyes of others, thereby hurting their perceptions of God. But being gay hurts... you and the person you're willingly in a relationship with. You'd think there'd be much more outrage over something like drug abuse or domestic violence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrnik
Secondly the 'proof texts' so many use on the subject have to be read through exegesis and put into correct contextualisation. There is a good argument that both texts were not addressing general same sex monogomous (sp?) relationships but using sex as a form of worship to pagan gods.

Bring up stuff like that and you'll most likely get dismissed out of hand. Take it from someone who's tried. I know people who have respond to these arguments intelligently and explained why they did not feel that these were reasonable interpretations of Scripture. But such examples - where someone is willing to hear you out and respond to your viewpoint intelligently - are the exception rather than the rule. Most just act like your mind has been poisoned by the mere act of showing sympathy to someone who is gay, and therefore you're apparently distorting everything to mean what you want it to mean. There's just no winning this one against people who already have their heels dug in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrnik
Lastly if God has made us in our image then are we born gay/hetrosexual or asexual and life informs our choices. If we are born how we are (as most gay people I know say) then maybe God is more accepting of our sexuality than we have been.

We haven't arrived at a definitive proof that people are "born gay", but even if we had, science is another one of those things that the most extreme conservatives like to dismiss out of hand (because, you know, those scientists are all just a bunch of godless liberals seeking to undermine society!) This too ends up being a useless argument against those who are already convinced it's an abomination no matter how you slice it. I've even heard an argument from the Calvinist point of view saying that people could be born gay because they aren't among the people God ever intended to save anyway. It's amazing, the stuff people come up with to justify their hatred.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrnik
Ok I'm gonna hide now so the flak doesn't hit me.

Eh, what's the worst that could come of it? "Flak" is just words from people with their own anger issues who are already determined not to hear you out. I think the far worse consequences are faced by those who actually are gay, and I think the best thing we can do for them is speak up and remind fellow Christians that these folks still deserve our love and compassion, regardless of whether what they are doing is a sin.

Personally, since I've seen so many convincing arguments on both sides, and since my conviction is to take the Bible seriously and not just jump to the conclusion that I want to be true simply because it would make things easier, I've decided that I have to give the benefit of the doubt, and not spout off things I'm not sure of. If Jennifer were part of my local church community, I'd sit down and have a chat with her, try to understand where she is coming from, and hopefully be someone who reaches beyond everybody else's attempts to prove that she is wrong. Any gay person who was any association at all with the church has probably been told ten million times that they are wrong (often with various threats of the "you're going to hell" variety immediately following), and yet every new person who finds out they're gay takes it upon themselves to make sure the person knows their stance is crystal clear. What they see from fellow Christians is that disagreeing with your stance on a major issue seems to justify dehumanizing you. And I want to be the exception to that rule. Since I don't know Jennifer personally but I was a fan back in the day and still enjoy her music now, I feel that it would not be fair of me to dismiss everything she has to say simply on the grounds that she is gay. I want to show my support regardless of my feelings on the gay issue.

And that's part of the reason why I went to see her in concert. Which was weird, to say the least. (Not because of anything she said or did on stage, but she played a club in Hollywood. Consider the audience.)

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DISCLAIMER: The preceding post was a statement of opinion, and does not reflect the views of the members of Jars of Clay, the moderators of Jarchives, or any member of the Holy Trinity. In fact, it is only my opinion that this is my opinion. In my opinion, you may choose to believe that my opinion is fact, if in fact you are of the opinion that you are allowed to choose what you believe, which presupposes the opinion that you do in fact exist in the first place - in my humble opinion, of course. It is my opinion that all of my opinions are humble opinions, but this does not indicate a bias on my part against opinions which are, in my opinion, proud opinions.
stinequeen

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Reply with quote  #31 
1. Love J. Knapp, love her music.
2. Love J. Knapp as a person - she's fun, she's got a sense of humor, she's fabulous.
3. Love the fact that MOST Christians are behaving like Christ in this circumstance and still loving her and supporting her.
4. Trying to catch her in concert soon.

murlough23

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinequeen
3. Love the fact that MOST Christians are behaving like Christ in this circumstance and still loving her and supporting her.

What the heck does being a Christian have to do with being like Christ? 

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DISCLAIMER: The preceding post was a statement of opinion, and does not reflect the views of the members of Jars of Clay, the moderators of Jarchives, or any member of the Holy Trinity. In fact, it is only my opinion that this is my opinion. In my opinion, you may choose to believe that my opinion is fact, if in fact you are of the opinion that you are allowed to choose what you believe, which presupposes the opinion that you do in fact exist in the first place - in my humble opinion, of course. It is my opinion that all of my opinions are humble opinions, but this does not indicate a bias on my part against opinions which are, in my opinion, proud opinions.
willb

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
Originally Posted by murlough23
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinequeen
3. Love the fact that MOST Christians are behaving like Christ in this circumstance and still loving her and supporting her.

What the heck does being a Christian have to do with being like Christ? 


Since the term 'Christian' is commonly ascribed to followers of Jesus Christ, it has everything to do with 'being like Christ'.  Just because some Christians don't live up to the 'calling' shouldn't give the rest of us a bad name.  (Not to imply that I don't fall short more often than I care to admit.)

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murlough23

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by willb
Since the term 'Christian' is commonly ascribed to followers of Jesus Christ, it has everything to do with 'being like Christ'.  Just because some Christians don't live up to the 'calling' shouldn't give the rest of us a bad name.  (Not to imply that I don't fall short more often than I care to admit.)

So, there's this thing called sarcasm...

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DISCLAIMER: The preceding post was a statement of opinion, and does not reflect the views of the members of Jars of Clay, the moderators of Jarchives, or any member of the Holy Trinity. In fact, it is only my opinion that this is my opinion. In my opinion, you may choose to believe that my opinion is fact, if in fact you are of the opinion that you are allowed to choose what you believe, which presupposes the opinion that you do in fact exist in the first place - in my humble opinion, of course. It is my opinion that all of my opinions are humble opinions, but this does not indicate a bias on my part against opinions which are, in my opinion, proud opinions.
willb

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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by murlough23
Quote:
Originally Posted by willb
Since the term 'Christian' is commonly ascribed to followers of Jesus Christ, it has everything to do with 'being like Christ'.  Just because some Christians don't live up to the 'calling' shouldn't give the rest of us a bad name.  (Not to imply that I don't fall short more often than I care to admit.)

So, there's this thing called sarcasm...


Sorry, my mistake.   I tend to view your posts as rather critical so I made a wrong assumption.   

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murlough23

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Reply with quote  #36 
Quote:
Originally Posted by willb
Sorry, my mistake.   I tend to view your posts as rather critical so I made a wrong assumption.

I probably should have used  to make it more clear. Sarcasm is really hard to detect on the internet, and I often respond to other people's sarcastic quips as though they were serious. You'd think I'd be better at picking it up.

Your serious response, though, is exactly in line with what I was trying to imply through my sarcasm. Being a Christian is supposed to literally mean being a little Christ, but I think it's startlingly easy for folks to make Christianity all about other stuff like your politics or looking like you're more "moral" than others.

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DISCLAIMER: The preceding post was a statement of opinion, and does not reflect the views of the members of Jars of Clay, the moderators of Jarchives, or any member of the Holy Trinity. In fact, it is only my opinion that this is my opinion. In my opinion, you may choose to believe that my opinion is fact, if in fact you are of the opinion that you are allowed to choose what you believe, which presupposes the opinion that you do in fact exist in the first place - in my humble opinion, of course. It is my opinion that all of my opinions are humble opinions, but this does not indicate a bias on my part against opinions which are, in my opinion, proud opinions.
willb

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Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by murlough23
Quote:
Originally Posted by willb
Sorry, my mistake.   I tend to view your posts as rather critical so I made a wrong assumption.

I probably should have used  to make it more clear. Sarcasm is really hard to detect on the internet, and I often respond to other people's sarcastic quips as though they were serious. You'd think I'd be better at picking it up.

Your serious response, though, is exactly in line with what I was trying to imply through my sarcasm. Being a Christian is supposed to literally mean being a little Christ, but I think it's startlingly easy for folks to make Christianity all about other stuff like your politics or looking like you're more "moral" than others.


If I have learned anything in all my years, it is that I am NOT better or morally superior to anyone.  The world would be a better place if we all adopted that philosophy.

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CadillacKincaid

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Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by willb
Quote:
Originally Posted by murlough23
Quote:
Originally Posted by willb
Sorry, my mistake.   I tend to view your posts as rather critical so I made a wrong assumption.

I probably should have used  to make it more clear. Sarcasm is really hard to detect on the internet, and I often respond to other people's sarcastic quips as though they were serious. You'd think I'd be better at picking it up.

Your serious response, though, is exactly in line with what I was trying to imply through my sarcasm. Being a Christian is supposed to literally mean being a little Christ, but I think it's startlingly easy for folks to make Christianity all about other stuff like your politics or looking like you're more "moral" than others.


If I have learned anything in all my years, it is that I am NOT better or morally superior to anyone.  The world would be a better place if we all adopted that philosophy.


I agree willb
p_mcworth

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Reply with quote  #39 
The church has done much wrong in the name of 'truth' when it has been used to excuse hate towards others who struggle with sin - no matter what the sin the is.

'Sodomy' has been thrown around as hateful term - the ironic thing is many us have been guilty of sodomy and not realised it.  In Ezekel 16, God says to Jerusalem through the prophet:

"" 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. 51 Samaria did not commit half the sins you did. You have done more detestable things than they, and have made your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done. 52 Bear your disgrace, for you have furnished some justification for your sisters. Because your sins were more vile than theirs, they appear more righteous than you. So then, be ashamed and bear your disgrace, for you have made your sisters appear righteous. "

The church also does much wrong in the name of  'love' when it re-write the difficult to swallow message of the Bible that we all fall short of God's perfect law, be it our sexuality or anything else.

The being "born with..."  excuse is not an excuse.  We are all born in sin.  Sin has so affected our natures I'm pretty sure we are all born pre-disposed to struggle with certain sins more than others.  If something is a sin and we say it is not this is very unloving, more so than sharing the truth in a compassionate way, as a fellow sinner who is in as much need of God's grace as everyone else.






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Reply with quote  #40 
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrnik

Secondly the 'proof texts' so many use on the subject have to be read through exegesis and put into correct contextualisation. There is a good argument that both texts were not addressing general same sex monogomous (sp?) relationships but using sex as a form of worship to pagan gods.


I'm intrigued how this is applied to Leviticus 18 as same sex relationships are listed along side a huge list of sexual sins - that  'good argument' also means that:
  • having sex with your mother
  • having sex with your sister
  • having sex with your grand daughter
  • having sex with your neighbour's wife
  • having sex with animals
are only wrong if the sex was as a form of worship to pagan gods and may be alright in other contexts.



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Reply with quote  #41 
Quote:
Originally Posted by p_mcworth
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrnik

Secondly the 'proof texts' so many use on the subject have to be read through exegesis and put into correct contextualisation. There is a good argument that both texts were not addressing general same sex monogomous (sp?) relationships but using sex as a form of worship to pagan gods.


I'm intrigued how this is applied to Leviticus 18 as same sex relationships are listed along side a huge list of sexual sins - that  'good argument' also means that:
  • having sex with your mother
  • having sex with your sister
  • having sex with your grand daughter
  • having sex with your neighbour's wife
  • having sex with animals

are only wrong if the sex was as a form of worship to pagan gods and may be alright in other contexts.


I believe the argument is that yes the whole of Ch18 is primarily referring to a pagan way of life (see vs 1-2) of which God was saying to his people do not live like the Canaanites as they worship foreign gods. Leviticus was written for the Israelites firstly and foremostly....

But...

Many laws of different countries recognise that certain relationships are still not healthy basically because a)the devastation they can and will cause and b) there's a certain yuk!! factor involved!! (eg with one's mother in law).

Not really space here to give this the space and respect it deserves (nor any other view) so if you want to pm me....






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Reply with quote  #42 
Yes Leviticus was originally written to the Israelites, but as part of God's word it is also for us.  This does not take away from it having implications for us today. In fact the same implications of sex in pagan worship our still there today.  The current 'religion' of hedonism in many western countries still makes idols of sex and ignores what God has to say about it.  God's people are still being led astray to worhsip idols by:  "God couldn't really mean that could he,especially if 2 people love each other and no one gets hurt"

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Reply with quote  #43 
Absolutely.

If I go back to the original issue -  if a same sex couple in a monogomous (in whatever way we want to define thiis: marriage, civil partnership) relationship say this is how God made me and have said they have a christian faith (of which there are many people who do) why is it sinful?

Science and technology have done heaps to advance our understanding of Biblical times but have also shown that things are not always straightforward including debateslike this.

Unfortunately so many people like the above have been treated by others in a not very loving way and then such people go and have a prawn sandwich!!!

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Reply with quote  #44 
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrnik

If I go back to the original issue -  if a same sex couple in a monogomous (in whatever way we want to define thiis: marriage, civil partnership) relationship say this is how God made me and have said they have a christian faith (of which there are many people who do) why is it sinful?


If God says something is sinful (as in Leviticus 18) and later through Jesus does not show that this has been fufilled (as in the case of clean and unclean foods and regulations like prawns) then it is still sin - who are we to say otherwise.  "God made me..." cannot be used to say something isn't sin - otherwise original sin is not sin anymore and Jesus did not need to die for me.

Quote:

Science and technology have done heaps to advance our understanding of Biblical times but have also shown that things are not always straightforward including debateslike this.


Sorry I forgot God was limited by the scientific understanding of the time and declared things to be sin because the people were too primitive to understand otherwise - how nice of him.

If we look at the Bible honestly, the debate about whether this is a sin is straightforward, however dealing with the fall out in that real people are going to struggle with this sin (as in every sin) is not.  Life in a fallen world is difficult and messy, and just because people struggle with something from birth does not make it Ok.

Quote:

Unfortunately so many people like the above have been treated by others in a not very loving way and then such people go and have a prawn sandwich!!!


I am deeply saddened by how unloving christians have been over this issue.  They should be greatly ashamed and called out on it.  It is a shame that many use this as an excuse not to look at their own sin - instead waving placards with hateful slogans and going on protests.  However it is not automatically loving to just re-write God's words to say something the opposite of what he has told us. 

What's wrong with a prawn sandwich - yes these were declared unclean by God in Leviticus 11, but Jesus fufilled the food laws of the OT and made these clean again:

Quote:
Acts 10
About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."

 14"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."

 15The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

On the other hand Jesus only increased our understanding of his law's requirements on sex - adultery was still wrong, but Jesus extended our understanding to include lust; divorce was permitted in the law, but Jesus extended the requirements to only allow in case of marriage unfaithfulness.  If same sex sexual relationships were no longer sin in a monogomous relationships surely Jesus would have let his followers know then, and his followers through the ages through his Word.


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Reply with quote  #45 
Quote:
If we look at the Bible honestly... 

The Bible: written over 2000 years about a culture(s) and life that we don't fully understand. My comment about science and technology was about how it has helped us (and continues to do so)to improve our understandings of Biblical times. The new(ish) debates about creation and showing there is another way instead of the arguement of 7 day creation vs evolution is one example.

This is relevant because our interpretation of scripture has to be adapted in light of new discoveries (eg understanding the culture of Jesus' day is vital in interpretating his parables).

We have to be honest and be willing to change our understanding in some cases otherwise we do violence to scripture. History is full of examples where believers have had to change their understanding in light of new revelations. This hasn't stopped in the 21st Century. 

the debate about whether this is a sin is straightforward


Actually it isn't. Michael Vasey back in the 1980's was one the first evangelicals to challenge common understanding. Since then Godly men and women filled with the Holy Spirit have spent time (sometimes painfully) going back over the original text and find more questions. What they thought was simple has proved not to be.

We all read scripture through our own lenses. No-one has a monopoly on the truth of scripture. As already stated godly men and women and disagree how to interpret scripture.

Quote:

If same sex sexual relationships were no longer sin in a monogomous relationships surely Jesus would have let his followers know then, and his followers through the ages through his Word.



Sorry this is a very weak argument. Jesus lived under Roman occupation where the lifestyle would have been very open and obvious. His silence on the matter does more to disprove your theory rather than support it because Jesus wasn't shy in challenging sin. In addition he spoke more about divorce and money - two subjects we seem to gloss over these days!




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Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrnik

We have to be honest and be willing to change our understanding in some cases otherwise we do violence to scripture. History is full of examples where believers have had to change their understanding in light of new revelations. This hasn't stopped in the 21st Century. 

We also do violence to scripture interpretting it according to the spirit of our culture and changing the message to fit popular thinking.

So do you hold science above scripture.  Is that the ultimate revelation?  Most things which are claimed to be 'science' these days are still theory and change very frequently. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by adrnik

Quote:
Originally Posted by p_mcworth

If same sex sexual relationships were no longer sin in a monogomous relationships surely Jesus would have let his followers know then, and his followers through the ages through his Word.


Sorry this is a very weak argument. Jesus lived under Roman occupation where the lifestyle would have been very open and obvious. His silence on the matter does more to disprove your theory rather than support it because Jesus wasn't shy in challenging sin. In addition he spoke more about divorce and money - two subjects we seem to gloss over these days!


Yes same sex sexual relationships would have been very open among Gentiles, but not among Jews.  Most of Jesus conversations in the new testament were to Jews - so his silence does not weaken my argument, as they already believed it to be sin based on the law.

You are right he spoke more about divorce and money and we should not disregard this (see my post above on Ezekiel were I stressed many of us are guilty of sodomy and don't realise it), but this does not mean we should start saying things are not sin which God has said is sin.

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Reply with quote  #47 
Quote:
So do you hold science above scripture.  Is that the ultimate revelation?  Most things which are claimed to be 'science' these days are still theory and change very frequently. 


Short answer absolutely not.

What I have been trying to say (obviously not very well) is that interpreting (much of - not all) scripture is not as starightforward as most people seem to think and two people can read it and have two different opinions to what it means (this is a very simplistic).

In regards to this thread Christians scholars have re-read the original text and with the help of the sciences developed a better understanding of the text, the context of what it was written into and this has informed their change of mind to what it means for us now.

Of course Christian scholars disagree and vary over interpreting the bible but my point has been to say that there is another way of looking at this text which in many peoples eyes is perfectly legitimate.

The sciences have up until The Enlightenment been the friend and helper of faith. The 20th century saw this relationship diminish but it is growing again.

I mentioned Michael Vasey on an earlier post - his book 'Strangers and Friends' explains much of what I've been trying to say but only better!

A more general book on interpreting the Bible which is very good and is part of my reading list at college is by Gordon fee and Douglas Stuart 'How to read the Bible for all its worth'.

Sorry if I haven't explained myself too well - it is harder on a forum like this.

See you on other threads








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Reply with quote  #48 
My thoughts exactly, p_mcworth.

I'm skeptical of people who claim to have "new revelations", because history has proven that new revelations constantly need to be reformed and recalled.

It's the reason reformed Christianity exists. While we each individual interpret based on our context and experiences (we can't help but do so), we need to keep in mind that some things aren't up to interpretation. Special doctrines that make us comfortable or afford us peace of mind are the hallmark of bad theology.

Indulgences, purgatory, infant baptism, and many similar ideas stemmed from the same kind of arguments that made people uncomfortable. None of them have a basis in scripture, but because of the cultural climate of the times, they came into being. 

I'm not saying that the practice of homosexuality is any worse a sin then addiction to pornography or lying. I'm saying that proclivity doesn't negate sinfulness.

In my family, there is a history of alcohol abuse. There's scientific research that shows alcohol abuse can be linked to genetic predisposition. If I were an alcoholic, would my genetic predisposition preclude my sinfulness?

Paul talks about his "thorn in the flesh". I don't know what it is, but it was something that brought him difficulty in his life. God didn't take it away because his grace was enough for Paul. I believe that Paul had some sort of internal struggle (not a physical malady), or why else would grace matter? I know there are struggles in my life that I just can't seem to shake, but I want to, and I pray for the strength to overcome them constantly. God doesn't take them away. Paul is kept humble by this thorn. I'm kept humble by my thorns.

I dunno. Just my 2 cents. 

BTW, her new stuff is pretty good.
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Reply with quote  #49 
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrnik

Sorry if I haven't explained myself too well - it is harder on a forum like this.

See you on other threads


Thank you for a civil debate.  We could both keep arguing with each other till we are blue in the face and still not change each others minds.

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Reply with quote  #50 
Quote:
Originally Posted by murlough23
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinequeen
3. Love the fact that MOST Christians are behaving like Christ in this circumstance and still loving her and supporting her.

What the heck does being a Christian have to do with being like Christ? 
 
 
EVERYTHING!! That's what the Christian strives for, to be in the likeness of Christ.

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