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SethM

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D-Webb's new album is available in digital format two months before the physical album is due. I love how this guy just loves to share his music. I wonder how his label gets around his eagerness to get his music into people's hand.

Anyway, I grab myself digital tier 2, which is the album, making of doco and a bunch of wallpapers and cover art. Quite a nice package at a great price too. Webb takes an electronic route with this album. There's some acoustic guitar and live drums on a few tracks, but its mainly him and Joshua Moore (Caedmon's Call) bangin' away at a bunch of synths and drum machines. It's a really unique album amongst Christian musicians and both artists do it really well (this coming from someone whose listening comprises about 50-75% underground electronica).

There's also some controversy about this album as well (as if a Derek Webb album is free from that). In this instance, it's his use of the 'S' word on one track. I haven't listened closely enough to the lyrics of the whole song yet to decide whether it's necessary or not, but it really doesn't fuss me at any rate. It's just a word (which I think is part of the point of him using it).

Anyone else check this album out yet?
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Mike and I got the Tier 3.  We absolutely love the album!  Derek Webb is amazing and so is this album. Its remarkable to me that Derek can pull off what even Chris Cornell can not ("Scream" was a DISASTER).

Regarding the "s" word (lol), its not necessary but functional. I suspect that that song is one of the most important to him on the cd because he fought with his record company to keep it on the album, and he uses that song to basically start his documentary. The effect of using the "s" word is that is makes everyone talk about the album, talk about that song, and hopefully listen to it. To get an idea what the song is about, it starts "You say you treat others like you'd like to be, I guess you love being hated for your sexuality."

*Warning! Swear word used below!*

For those who might be wondering, the line on the song is "Meanwhile we sit, like we just don't give a shit, about 50,000 people who are dying today."

NewMath

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It sounds like a line right out of a Tony Campolo message.  I was at a chapel service one day a number of years back and Tony Campolo said pretty well the exact same thing and followed it up by stating that most of the people in the room were probably more bothered by the fact that he just used a "swear" word than the fact that those 50,000 people he spoke of would be dead by the end of the day.  By some of the grumblings I heard afterwards, he very well may have been right.

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Reply with quote  #4 
I haven't heard this yet but might have to go for it tonight. I find the controversy a bit ridiculous (plus, there's precedent - Vigilantes of Love, anyone?), but hopefully it will ultimately be about the music.
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Also - I look forward to seeing which of the two versions of the album sells better in mediums where both are available. That promises to be interesting.
SethM

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Reply with quote  #6 
What's the Vigilantes of Love controversy? I don't really follow the band at all, so I've never heard about it.

Webb's using the s-word doesn't really fuss me at all. They're just words after all. I think that's part of Webb's point with that song. I'd say it's as much about the music as any of his previous albums have been, which is to say, it's important to Webb to try a new approach with each album. Mockingbird had a fantastic sound, I thought.

As for the versions - this is the first album I've bought as an outright digital purchase. I've bought bonus tracks and singles before, but this is the first full album. I think I've moved on from 'needing' to have physical albums.

murlough23

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Reply with quote  #7 
I think this album is quite brilliant. One of the few 5-star albums I've heard so far in 2009. I was a fan of Derek in the past, but I always found his music to be a bit bland - he's always had thought-provoking lyrics, but at times it felt like he was worried about the music getting in the way of the message, so he kept things really simple. Now he's leaped forward as an artist and apparently decided that it's OK for both the music and the lyrics to be intriguing. I'm a guy who loves a good catchy beat, but that won't sell a record for me if the lyrics are stupid, and it won't distract me from good lyrics. Thankfully Derek's lyrics pretty much always fall into the latter category.

I also think it's cool that Derek was able to make all manner of extras available to the fans who really wanted to go for that stuff, while allowing the rest of us to just buy the album at a reasonable price.

My favorite song on the album so far is "The Spirit Vs. the Kickdrum", but I'm also a big fan of "I Love/Hate You", "Cobra Con", "Black Eye", "Heaven", "Freddie, Please", and... oh heck, most of these tracks are favorites.

One criticism: While I like the song "What Matters More" and wholeheartedly agree with what Derek has to say in that song, I think he might be slightly misguided if he's trying to make a point to a conservative audience that is squeamish about swear words. He proves his point nicely by their reaction to his language and how that basically trumps any other sins he might be discussing, such as homophobia or not caring about people in poverty. But in doing so, he basically ensures that none of those folks are going to really sit down and listen to what he has to say. Folks like me are gonna cheer for him, but we're the "choir" being preached to in this case - we already agreed with Derek on this issue. I can't help but wonder if there might have been a way to prove his point without the "explicit language", even if at the same time I'm a bit annoyed with people who make it their job to count naughty words and don't consider that PG-rated words can often do far greater damage, depending on the context. (We're very good at hating gays without using any cusswords, for example.)

Anyway, when my physical copies show up, since I get a "clean version" thrown in for free along with the "explicit version" I bought, I have to figure out who to give away the "clean version" to. Probably someone who I think would appreciate the lyrics but who might be bothered by the "bad word" and therefore wouldn't miss the one song that uses them.

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DISCLAIMER: The preceding post was a statement of opinion, and does not reflect the views of the members of Jars of Clay, the moderators of Jarchives, or any member of the Holy Trinity. In fact, it is only my opinion that this is my opinion. In my opinion, you may choose to believe that my opinion is fact, if in fact you are of the opinion that you are allowed to choose what you believe, which presupposes the opinion that you do in fact exist in the first place - in my humble opinion, of course. It is my opinion that all of my opinions are humble opinions, but this does not indicate a bias on my part against opinions which are, in my opinion, proud opinions.
romelB

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Reply with quote  #8 
i like the album.

of course the swear word is an issue. i'd be surprised if it isn't.
willb

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I admit that I can't call myself a 'fan' of Derek Webb since I haven't any of his music.   Or I didn't until this purchase his new album Stockholm Syndrome

A couple thoughts: 

Can someone give me the reasoning for the song Freddie, Please??  I know it is directed towards Fred Phelps, but I ask, 'What is the point?'  First, this song is a year too late as I haven't heard anything of Fred Phelps in quite some time (thankfully).  Secondly, why is Derek 'casting his pearls before swine'??  It isn't like Phelps is going to hear this song, anyway. 

As to the song, What Matters More; I have to wonder what was going through Derek Webbs mind with this one.  DON'T MISUNDERSTAND.  It isn't that I have never used the term 'shit' before or never used a vulgar word, but just because we are prone to slip-up on occassion doesn't warrant it to purposely be done as Derek does on this song.  Apparently INO Records felt the same way and rightly so.  As Christians, we are called to a higher standard.  The use of a vulgarity doesn't so much emphasize a point as it shows a lack of wisdom in being able to make your point without such means.  His choice of wording ACTUALLY diminshed his point because those who needed to receive it couldn't get past a vulgar word! 

As to those who take umbrage about Derek Webb's choice of words, just take note of the movies and television programs that you have watched in the last week or so.  Chances are your entertainment choices would show you to be a hypocrite when taking Webb to task over some song lyrics.

Was this all a marketing ploy by Webb to sell albums??  I doubt it, but then I am sure all the fuss has sold an extra album or two for those who are/were curious.  Count me as one of them. 

Will    


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SethM

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by willb


As to those who take umbrage about Derek Webb's choice of words, just take note of the movies and television programs that you have watched in the last week or so.  Chances are your entertainment choices would show you to be a hypocrite when taking Webb to task over some song lyrics.



Isn't this his point, though? Which would mean that what you said earlier about it diminishing his point is moot. The whole song is about double standards and it's always been Webb's intention with his solo releases to promote discussion around these kind of issues. The fact that people are talking about it, however misguided or misinformed, is better than no talk at all.
murlough23

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Quote:
Can someone give me the reasoning for the song Freddie, Please?? I know it is directed towards Fred Phelps, but I ask, 'What is the point?' First, this song is a year too late as I haven't heard anything of Fred Phelps in quite some time (thankfully). Secondly, why is Derek 'casting his pearls before swine'?? It isn't like Phelps is going to hear this song, anyway.


I think it's beyond obvious to all of us that Phelps is a crackpot. I doubt we're in danger of joining his cult any time soon. But I don't think this is what Derek is worried about. An overarching theme of Stockholm Syndrome is how people have traded being true followers of Christ for being followers of a system of rules that comforts them but that is actually very offensive to Christ. Fred Phelps is a pretty extreme example, but Jesus could just as easily be saying to me, "Please, bro. Don't try to go to church and act all holy like you love me when you're spewing hatred towards one of your brothers or sisters five minutes after service lets out. I see right through that garbage." That's what I get out of the song. If I just laugh at Fred Phelps for being a jerk and feel good about myself 'cause I'm better than him, I've missed the point.

Quote:
As to the song, What Matters More; I have to wonder what was going through Derek Webbs mind with this one.


He was probably very angry. There's a fine line between a righteous expression of anger and an unrighteous one.

Quote:
DON'T MISUNDERSTAND. It isn't that I have never used the term 'shit' before or never used a vulgar word, but just because we are prone to slip-up on occassion doesn't warrant it to purposely be done as Derek does on this song.


Did you intentionally type "shit" as part of your post, or did that just slip out of your fingers?

Quote:
Apparently INO Records felt the same way and rightly so. As Christians, we are called to a higher standard. The use of a vulgarity doesn't so much emphasize a point as it shows a lack of wisdom in being able to make your point without such means.


I'm curious as to what makes it a vulgarity. Far as I can see, there's nothing intrinsic to the word that makes it one, because we have plenty of other words that mean the exact same thing and are considered more acceptable: Crap, poop, feces, etc. (How would you have reacted to the song if it said "give a crap"? How about "give a damn"?)

I have a friend who was a missionary in India once. He noted that the Christians he worked with there used "shit" as part of normal speech, probably the way some of us use "crap" or whatever else, and it wasn't considered offensive there. It's all about the meaning and value people assign to words, so I tend to consider the audience and what they find offensive. Of course Derek is still aiming his words at an American audience, so that doesn't get him off the hook. But we need to get over this notions that words are inherently vulgar. It's really the meaning and the intent of how we use it.

Quote:
His choice of wording ACTUALLY diminshed his point because those who needed to receive it couldn't get past a vulgar word!


I'm pretty sure that proved his point. Christians in America, for the most part, are more rankled about people's word choice than they are about poverty. People expend a lot more effort chastising a Christian singer for saying "shit" - heck, even if it's just an interview - than they do trying to combat starvation and homelessness and sex trafficking. Which offense have I spent more time getting up in arms over lately? Which have you?

Quote:
As to those who take umbrage about Derek Webb's choice of words, just take note of the movies and television programs that you have watched in the last week or so. Chances are your entertainment choices would show you to be a hypocrite when taking Webb to task over some song lyrics.


Or your choices of words in web postings, I guess.

Quote:
Was this all a marketing ploy by Webb to sell albums?? I doubt it, but then I am sure all the fuss has sold an extra album or two for those who are/were curious. Count me as one of them.


The use of the word "shit" wasn't a marketing ploy (if so, it'd be a pretty stupid one, as Derek made the controversial song in question freely available on the Internet, so one doesn't need to buy the album to hear it). The battle with the record label wasn't a marketing ploy, either. That was genuine, unless you want to call both Derek and the people at INO liars. What Derek decided to do after that point was marketing - and a very creative, viral type of marketing that I kind of admire. He thought out of the box and found a way to turn lemons into lemonade. Even though he had some serious things to say, he had fun with his method of getting the message out, and I think that's reflected in his musical choices on the album.

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DISCLAIMER: The preceding post was a statement of opinion, and does not reflect the views of the members of Jars of Clay, the moderators of Jarchives, or any member of the Holy Trinity. In fact, it is only my opinion that this is my opinion. In my opinion, you may choose to believe that my opinion is fact, if in fact you are of the opinion that you are allowed to choose what you believe, which presupposes the opinion that you do in fact exist in the first place - in my humble opinion, of course. It is my opinion that all of my opinions are humble opinions, but this does not indicate a bias on my part against opinions which are, in my opinion, proud opinions.
willb

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Reply with quote  #12 

Quote:
Originally Posted by murlough23
Quote:
Can someone give me the reasoning for the song Freddie, Please?? I know it is directed towards Fred Phelps, but I ask, 'What is the point?' First, this song is a year too late as I haven't heard anything of Fred Phelps in quite some time (thankfully). Secondly, why is Derek 'casting his pearls before swine'?? It isn't like Phelps is going to hear this song, anyway.


I think it's beyond obvious to all of us that Phelps is a crackpot. I doubt we're in danger of joining his cult any time soon. But I don't think this is what Derek is worried about. An overarching theme of Stockholm Syndrome is how people have traded being true followers of Christ for being followers of a system of rules that comforts them but that is actually very offensive to Christ. Fred Phelps is a pretty extreme example, but Jesus could just as easily be saying to me, "Please, bro. Don't try to go to church and act all holy like you love me when you're spewing hatred towards one of your brothers or sisters five minutes after service lets out. I see right through that garbage." That's what I get out of the song. If I just laugh at Fred Phelps for being a jerk and feel good about myself 'cause I'm better than him, I've missed the point.

Quote:
As to the song, What Matters More; I have to wonder what was going through Derek Webbs mind with this one.


He was probably very angry. There's a fine line between a righteous expression of anger and an unrighteous one.

Quote:
DON'T MISUNDERSTAND. It isn't that I have never used the term 'shit' before or never used a vulgar word, but just because we are prone to slip-up on occassion doesn't warrant it to purposely be done as Derek does on this song.


Did you intentionally type "shit" as part of your post, or did that just slip out of your fingers?

Quote:
Apparently INO Records felt the same way and rightly so. As Christians, we are called to a higher standard. The use of a vulgarity doesn't so much emphasize a point as it shows a lack of wisdom in being able to make your point without such means.


I'm curious as to what makes it a vulgarity. Far as I can see, there's nothing intrinsic to the word that makes it one, because we have plenty of other words that mean the exact same thing and are considered more acceptable: Crap, poop, feces, etc. (How would you have reacted to the song if it said "give a crap"? How about "give a damn"?)

I have a friend who was a missionary in India once. He noted that the Christians he worked with there used "shit" as part of normal speech, probably the way some of us use "crap" or whatever else, and it wasn't considered offensive there. It's all about the meaning and value people assign to words, so I tend to consider the audience and what they find offensive. Of course Derek is still aiming his words at an American audience, so that doesn't get him off the hook. But we need to get over this notions that words are inherently vulgar. It's really the meaning and the intent of how we use it.

Quote:
His choice of wording ACTUALLY diminshed his point because those who needed to receive it couldn't get past a vulgar word!


I'm pretty sure that proved his point. Christians in America, for the most part, are more rankled about people's word choice than they are about poverty. People expend a lot more effort chastising a Christian singer for saying "shit" - heck, even if it's just an interview - than they do trying to combat starvation and homelessness and sex trafficking. Which offense have I spent more time getting up in arms over lately? Which have you?

Quote:
As to those who take umbrage about Derek Webb's choice of words, just take note of the movies and television programs that you have watched in the last week or so. Chances are your entertainment choices would show you to be a hypocrite when taking Webb to task over some song lyrics.


Or your choices of words in web postings, I guess.

Quote:
Was this all a marketing ploy by Webb to sell albums?? I doubt it, but then I am sure all the fuss has sold an extra album or two for those who are/were curious. Count me as one of them.


The use of the word "shit" wasn't a marketing ploy (if so, it'd be a pretty stupid one, as Derek made the controversial song in question freely available on the Internet, so one doesn't need to buy the album to hear it). The battle with the record label wasn't a marketing ploy, either. That was genuine, unless you want to call both Derek and the people at INO liars. What Derek decided to do after that point was marketing - and a very creative, viral type of marketing that I kind of admire. He thought out of the box and found a way to turn lemons into lemonade. Even though he had some serious things to say, he had fun with his method of getting the message out, and I think that's reflected in his musical choices on the album.


I can see your point about Freddie, Please NOT being directed at Phelps, but rather to the rest of us.  Or  even that the song is even about him.  It is about Christians who don't 'walk the talk'.  Good point about how we can play the pharisee and say, 'Thank-you God that I am not like THAT person.' 

My typing was intentional.  If I had typed "the 's' word" or typed 'sh_t' you would have know what I was referring.  Like you said, it is just a word.  I wouldn't say that crap, poop, or another similar word would have been any less offensive in the context of the song.  The words, in and of themselves, aren't what makes them offensive, but how they are used.  The word wasn't used referencing it's actual meaning, but used in a figurative/slang sense.  

I am not trying to split hairs or act holier-than-thou.  Simply put, I think Derek could have made his point without the use of the 'offensive' word, but that is easy for me to say from my perspective.  Someone else sees it from a differing vantage point.  Sadly, you are correct that many will take offense over a minor point and MISS the larger issue.  

Anyway, I am liking Stockhom Syndrome.   

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murlough23

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
The word wasn't used referencing it's actual meaning, but used in a figurative/slang sense.


I'm guessing you haven't heard about giveashit.org. From what I understand, Webb is starting up a program to get latrines dug for people living in unsanitary conditions. The use of the word in this context is quite literal. (The website isn't functional yet, but as I understand it, that's the plan.)

(Maybe after this, he could help people in flood-ravaged towns who need levees built, just to see if anyone gives a dam.)

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DISCLAIMER: The preceding post was a statement of opinion, and does not reflect the views of the members of Jars of Clay, the moderators of Jarchives, or any member of the Holy Trinity. In fact, it is only my opinion that this is my opinion. In my opinion, you may choose to believe that my opinion is fact, if in fact you are of the opinion that you are allowed to choose what you believe, which presupposes the opinion that you do in fact exist in the first place - in my humble opinion, of course. It is my opinion that all of my opinions are humble opinions, but this does not indicate a bias on my part against opinions which are, in my opinion, proud opinions.
romelB

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by murlough23

(Maybe after this, he could help people in flood-ravaged towns who need levees built, just to see if anyone gives a dam.)


sorry that im not gonna contribute to the topic. i just wanna LOL on this this one. So,
willb

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Quote:
Originally Posted by romelB
Quote:
Originally Posted by murlough23

(Maybe after this, he could help people in flood-ravaged towns who need levees built, just to see if anyone gives a dam.)


sorry that im not gonna contribute to the topic. i just wanna LOL on this this one. So,


Nothing to add, but I second this: LOL

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murlough23

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Reply with quote  #16 
Glad I could at least bring a little levity to the discussion.
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DISCLAIMER: The preceding post was a statement of opinion, and does not reflect the views of the members of Jars of Clay, the moderators of Jarchives, or any member of the Holy Trinity. In fact, it is only my opinion that this is my opinion. In my opinion, you may choose to believe that my opinion is fact, if in fact you are of the opinion that you are allowed to choose what you believe, which presupposes the opinion that you do in fact exist in the first place - in my humble opinion, of course. It is my opinion that all of my opinions are humble opinions, but this does not indicate a bias on my part against opinions which are, in my opinion, proud opinions.
willb

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Freddie, Please makes USA Today's, August 25th, pick of the week playlist.

 

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willb

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I confess that Stockholm Syndrome is my first Derek Webb album.  I love it!!  Also, What Matters More is a favorite song of mine.  Don't get the CD without it!!! 


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romelB

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Black Eye is my favorite.
willb

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Quote:
Originally Posted by romelB
Black Eye is my favorite.


I love that song, also!

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clayhazelnut

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by murlough23
Quote:
The word wasn't used referencing it's actual meaning, but used in a figurative/slang sense.


I'm guessing you haven't heard about giveashit.org. From what I understand, Webb is starting up a program to get latrines dug for people living in unsanitary conditions. The use of the word in this context is quite literal. (The website isn't functional yet, but as I understand it, that's the plan.)


Is this for real? If so, that's one of the best things I have ever read.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clayhazelnut
Quote:
Originally Posted by murlough23
Quote:
The word wasn't used referencing it's actual meaning, but used in a figurative/slang sense.


I'm guessing you haven't heard about giveashit.org. From what I understand, Webb is starting up a program to get latrines dug for people living in unsanitary conditions. The use of the word in this context is quite literal. (The website isn't functional yet, but as I understand it, that's the plan.)


Is this for real? If so, that's one of the best things I have ever read.

I'm extremely skeptical about the validity of this rumor. But it's a creative idea just the same.


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haveapez

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Reply with quote  #23 
I encourage everyone to read the reviews at Jesusfreakhideout.com.  Their reviews are fairly close to what mine is.

http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/cdreviews/StockholmSyndrome.asp



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Quote:
Originally Posted by haveapez
I encourage everyone to read the reviews at Jesusfreakhideout.com.  Their reviews are fairly close to what mine is.

http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/cdreviews/StockholmSyndrome.asp





"Webb speaks of God and spiritual things often, but he never quite brings out hardcore Biblical theology, much less any kind of praise and worship music."

WHAT?!? I guess this guy, Nathaniel Schexnayder, doesn't really listen to Derek Webb!


strachanjm

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A couple of things. 

First, this guy as JesusFreakHideout is out of his mind. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, just as I am entitled to the opinion that he is both wrong and ignorant and without a worthwhile opinion. And I quote, "But the most disconcerting element on the Stockholm Syndrome is not the music or even so much the profanity but Webb's disturbing theology which surfaces multiple times throughout the album (and not just on "What Matters More")." Derek has the five sola's of the reformation tattooed on his body, and a theological library in his home to rival most pastors/scholars. His theology is fine, as anyone who has ever listened to She Must and Shall Go Free can attest to. Quite frankly, if there were some kind of WWE-style theological battle royale, my money's on Derek Webb. I've told Derek face to face that I am convinced no one understands the gospel today better than he does. 

Second, giveashit.org is real and the website is registered to one Derek Webb. Anyone interested can just look up the domain registration. When Derek first announced concert dates for this tour, there were no dates in Chicago. I sent him a message on Twitter and said, "You're not coming to Chicago? Don't you giveashit.org?" That still makes me laugh, as does the give a dam idea mentioned earlier in this thread. 


citizenX

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Quote:
Originally Posted by strachanme
Quote:
Originally Posted by haveapez
I encourage everyone to read the reviews at Jesusfreakhideout.com.  Their reviews are fairly close to what mine is.

http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/cdreviews/StockholmSyndrome.asp





"Webb speaks of God and spiritual things often, but he never quite brings out hardcore Biblical theology, much less any kind of praise and worship music."

WHAT?!? I guess this guy, Nathaniel Schexnayder, doesn't really listen to Derek Webb!


No, actually he's got a point. I have seen Derek live many times, and I have come to the conclusion that he doesn't do "Christian" themed music live. He did do one praise and worship song to John Lennon once, but other than that he sticks mostly to a hodge podge of storytelling songs of random experiences or insightful musings. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining or being critical, I like hodge podges of storytelling songs of random experiences. Not everyone was called to be a Michael W. Smith. And we don't need a hundred Michael W. Smiths out there. I'm just saying, in my experience with Derek Webb, Schexnayder is not that far off the mark.



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Reply with quote  #27 
Have you ever heard Derek's music or ever seen him live? Christian themes are the vast majority of what he does.

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Reply with quote  #28 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarJark
Have you ever heard Derek's music or ever seen him live? Christian themes are the vast majority of what he does.

Yes and Yes. Of course I'm not talking about his recordings because I know better. I'm strictly referring to his live setlist. If I did not know Derek was a Christian beforehand, there was nothing in his concert that would have given me any indication of his Christianity. Apparently I'm not the only one who has noticed this. Anyone can do a spiritual song. I have heard great spiritual songs from many secular artists. Derek could easily fall in this category.

But again, Derek is a very gifted writer, and I can appreciate and admire that. Don't hear me complain because I'm not. The way he uses symbolism and poetry, if you are not listening through your Christian filter, it is likely you will miss the deeper meaning underlying his lyrics.



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Results of a poll: The average person thinks they're better than the average person.

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willb

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by strachanjm
A couple of things. 

First, this guy as JesusFreakHideout is out of his mind. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, just as I am entitled to the opinion that he is both wrong and ignorant and without a worthwhile opinion. And I quote, "But the most disconcerting element on the Stockholm Syndrome is not the music or even so much the profanity but Webb's disturbing theology which surfaces multiple times throughout the album (and not just on "What Matters More")." Derek has the five sola's of the reformation tattooed on his body, and a theological library in his home to rival most pastors/scholars. His theology is fine, as anyone who has ever listened to She Must and Shall Go Free can attest to. Quite frankly, if there were some kind of WWE-style theological battle royale, my money's on Derek Webb. I've told Derek face to face that I am convinced no one understands the gospel today better than he does. 

Second, giveashit.org is real and the website is registered to one Derek Webb. Anyone interested can just look up the domain registration. When Derek first announced concert dates for this tour, there were no dates in Chicago. I sent him a message on Twitter and said, "You're not coming to Chicago? Don't you giveashit.org?" That still makes me laugh, as does the give a dam idea mentioned earlier in this thread. 



I agree that the reviews at Jesus Freak Hideout are WAY off the mark.  I respect John Debiase and the staff there, but I let them know that I disagreed.  I encourage others to do the same.  I inquired as to what 'disturbing theology' Nathaniel was referencing and will see if I get a reply.

I want to go back to the issue of the use of vulgarity on the album, in particular the song What Matters More.  I will use Dereks own line from the song to question his choice of words, 'Cause if you really believed what you say you believe you wouldn't be so damned reckless with the words you speak.'  Seems Derek should have heeded his own advise?

STILL, I love this album and give it 5-Stars. 

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strachanjm

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Reply with quote  #30 
In regard to the question of Derek Webb's choice of language and the issue of vulgarity, I have a couple of responses. First, to use Derek's line from that song against him is unsatisfactory because Derek's word were not chosen recklessly but were carefully considered and indeed fought for. Second, by quoting the first part of that line from the song ("if you really believe what you say you believe...") you seem to suggest that his choice of words is contradictory to the gospel he believes, or at least not congruous. This, I believe, is both wrong and naive for several reasons. 

First, from the perspective of biblical studies, it is kind of our New Testament translators to translate skybala in Phil 3:8 as "rubbish," but to quote no less of a scholar than N. T. Wright: "students usually enjoy being told, which is the truth, that the best translation of this is 'shit' or 'crap' (Justification, 149)." In a very real sense, the word "shit" is part of the New Testament's vocabulary, or at least the Apostle Paul's. 

Second, if we may take into account the ethics of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, Matt 5:21-22 would strongly suggest that Jesus is concerned more with matters of the heart than physical expressions of those emotions. So, it is not just the one who murders who is guilty, but also the one who hates. This would suggest to me that what may be sinful about a swear word is the emotion inside a person that produces the word, regardless of whether the resulting vocalization is 'fudge' or a four-letter word. Whatever may have caused Derek to vocalize his feelings in those particular words, rather than 'we don't care' or something similar, I doubt anyone here would say that he had sinful intentions, that the word 'shit' was conjured up in the song out of anger or hatred or any other sinful emotion. Furthermore, unlike murder, I don't believe any particular vocalization of thought could be sinful. Sounds are neither inherently good nor bad, and neither are the combinations of those sounds to form words. We might also consider that Jesus here in Matthew uses the word raka. Again, and this may illustrate my point, because the word is extremely derogatory . BDAG defines this word as "a term of abuse/put-down relating to intelligence," Jesus is free to use this word, however, because the use of the word is essentially amoral until intentions and motives of the heart come into the picture. 

Third, speaking from my own experience, the more I think and pray and study, the more that I grow in the Spirit, the less I am concerned with societal externals like swear words. Following Paul, in the presence of those who might be offended, I abstain from such things, and yet my conscious is clean. For what it may be worth, I find this true of others as well. Just today in class, one of my professor's who is a devout believer said 'shit' during his lecture. I will abstain from naming him out of respect for him, but the truth is he also said 'damn', and my experience with him last semester was that rarely would a class go by where something of this nature did not occur. Perhaps it is also significant that he has thought and written on hermeneutics and considered the nature of language.  This is not to say, wellif Dr. s-and-so can swear, then so can Derek, but merely to suggest the possibility that the end of 1 Cor 10 provides me, and I believe other believers, with the categories in which to think about these things so that I can abstain when in the presence of those who might be offended (unless perhaps I felt the need to offend them, which is what Derek is doing), and yet also feel free in Christ to use the English language as I see fit. You may respond, "All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable," (1 Cor 10:23), and yet "The Earth is the Lord's, and all it contains" (10:26). 
willb

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by strachanjm
In regard to the question of Derek Webb's choice of language and the issue of vulgarity, I have a couple of responses. First, to use Derek's line from that song against him is unsatisfactory because Derek's word were not chosen recklessly but were carefully considered and indeed fought for. Second, by quoting the first part of that line from the song ("if you really believe what you say you believe...") you seem to suggest that his choice of words is contradictory to the gospel he believes, or at least not congruous. This, I believe, is both wrong and naive for several reasons. 

First, from the perspective of biblical studies, it is kind of our New Testament translators to translate skybala in Phil 3:8 as "rubbish," but to quote no less of a scholar than N. T. Wright: "students usually enjoy being told, which is the truth, that the best translation of this is 'shit' or 'crap' (Justification, 149)." In a very real sense, the word "shit" is part of the New Testament's vocabulary, or at least the Apostle Paul's. 

Second, if we may take into account the ethics of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, Matt 5:21-22 would strongly suggest that Jesus is concerned more with matters of the heart than physical expressions of those emotions. So, it is not just the one who murders who is guilty, but also the one who hates. This would suggest to me that what may be sinful about a swear word is the emotion inside a person that produces the word, regardless of whether the resulting vocalization is 'fudge' or a four-letter word. Whatever may have caused Derek to vocalize his feelings in those particular words, rather than 'we don't care' or something similar, I doubt anyone here would say that he had sinful intentions, that the word 'shit' was conjured up in the song out of anger or hatred or any other sinful emotion. Furthermore, unlike murder, I don't believe any particular vocalization of thought could be sinful. Sounds are neither inherently good nor bad, and neither are the combinations of those sounds to form words. We might also consider that Jesus here in Matthew uses the word raka. Again, and this may illustrate my point, because the word is extremely derogatory . BDAG defines this word as "a term of abuse/put-down relating to intelligence," Jesus is free to use this word, however, because the use of the word is essentially amoral until intentions and motives of the heart come into the picture. 

Third, speaking from my own experience, the more I think and pray and study, the more that I grow in the Spirit, the less I am concerned with societal externals like swear words. Following Paul, in the presence of those who might be offended, I abstain from such things, and yet my conscious is clean. For what it may be worth, I find this true of others as well. Just today in class, one of my professor's who is a devout believer said 'shit' during his lecture. I will abstain from naming him out of respect for him, but the truth is he also said 'damn', and my experience with him last semester was that rarely would a class go by where something of this nature did not occur. Perhaps it is also significant that he has thought and written on hermeneutics and considered the nature of language.  This is not to say, wellif Dr. s-and-so can swear, then so can Derek, but merely to suggest the possibility that the end of 1 Cor 10 provides me, and I believe other believers, with the categories in which to think about these things so that I can abstain when in the presence of those who might be offended (unless perhaps I felt the need to offend them, which is what Derek is doing), and yet also feel free in Christ to use the English language as I see fit. You may respond, "All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable," (1 Cor 10:23), and yet "The Earth is the Lord's, and all it contains" (10:26). 


Hi,

I am sure Derek considered the words/phrases he was using in these songs.  What I am saying, by using his own lyrics against him, is EXACTLY what some in the Christian community are saying.  That it is HE who is being reckless with the word choices in his songs.  My perspective is that it can work both ways.  Bottomline is that you can't please everyone and never will.

I appreciate what you are trying to say by pointing out certain words in the Bible and there meanings.  All the same, Scripture teaches that what we say/do should edify the Body of Christ and we should avoid offending those of the faith.  Since Derek's message is aimed at Christians and the church; it is my opinion that his word choices don't edify, but rather offend.  But then I will be the first to say my big mouth has offended more often than I care to admit.  I am fully aware of the 'beam in my eye.'  Yet, maybe offending the high-mindedness of some Christians is exactly what Derek was intending.  If so, I would say it worked.  Those with 'ears to hear and eyes to see' will hear and see.

This is just my opinion and it hasn't been my intent to stir up trouble. 

I love Stockholm Syndrome! 

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jars5

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Reply with quote  #32 

I've been wanting to hear this album. I love all of Derek's music. He's an exceptional songwriter. Upside Down is still my favorite album.

jars5

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Reply with quote  #33 

Stockholm is a great album, and I love the electronic touch.

SethM

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Reply with quote  #34 
willb - I agree that what we say and do is supposed to edify fellow believers, but we've got to define 'edify'. The way you're using it, edification means we only say nice things to each other and encourage each other with pats on the back. But to edify is to enlighten and instruct and by doing so, to uplift. I'd argue that enlightenment and instruction is often a case of challenging misconceptions or long-held, ingrained practices that aren't necessarily called for or accurate. This has always been what Webb's been about. There's also the intersection of Christianity and society which so many of us ignore, prefering to stick to our own Christian circles and not be challenged by the world. Why would you when it's easier to shake your head and turn your back? Again, this is exactly the area that Webb targets with his music.

Personally, whatever his faults might be, I'd rather listen to a Derek Webb album and be simultaneously challenged and uplifted than listen to another mindless, repetitive, so-called worship album.

murlough23

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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SethM
willb - I agree that what we say and do is supposed to edify fellow believers, but we've got to define 'edify'. The way you're using it, edification means we only say nice things to each other and encourage each other with pats on the back. But to edify is to enlighten and instruct and by doing so, to uplift. I'd argue that enlightenment and instruction is often a case of challenging misconceptions or long-held, ingrained practices that aren't necessarily called for or accurate. This has always been what Webb's been about. There's also the intersection of Christianity and society which so many of us ignore, prefering to stick to our own Christian circles and not be challenged by the world. Why would you when it's easier to shake your head and turn your back? Again, this is exactly the area that Webb targets with his music.

Personally, whatever his faults might be, I'd rather listen to a Derek Webb album and simultaneously challenged and uplifted than listen to another mindless, repetitive, so-called worship album.



Amen to all of this!

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DISCLAIMER: The preceding post was a statement of opinion, and does not reflect the views of the members of Jars of Clay, the moderators of Jarchives, or any member of the Holy Trinity. In fact, it is only my opinion that this is my opinion. In my opinion, you may choose to believe that my opinion is fact, if in fact you are of the opinion that you are allowed to choose what you believe, which presupposes the opinion that you do in fact exist in the first place - in my humble opinion, of course. It is my opinion that all of my opinions are humble opinions, but this does not indicate a bias on my part against opinions which are, in my opinion, proud opinions.
willb

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Reply with quote  #36 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SethM
willb - I agree that what we say and do is supposed to edify fellow believers, but we've got to define 'edify'. The way you're using it, edification means we only say nice things to each other and encourage each other with pats on the back. But to edify is to enlighten and instruct and by doing so, to uplift. I'd argue that enlightenment and instruction is often a case of challenging misconceptions or long-held, ingrained practices that aren't necessarily called for or accurate. This has always been what Webb's been about. There's also the intersection of Christianity and society which so many of us ignore, prefering to stick to our own Christian circles and not be challenged by the world. Why would you when it's easier to shake your head and turn your back? Again, this is exactly the area that Webb targets with his music.

Personally, whatever his faults might be, I'd rather listen to a Derek Webb album and be simultaneously challenged and uplifted than listen to another mindless, repetitive, so-called worship album.


Can't argue with anything you have written.  NOT that I am trying to start an argument or anything.

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murlough23

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Reply with quote  #37 
If you can't argue, then by definition, you can't start an argument.

Well, unless you start one inadvertently. But honestly, do any of us ever INTEND to start one?

NP: "Use It", The New Pornographers


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DISCLAIMER: The preceding post was a statement of opinion, and does not reflect the views of the members of Jars of Clay, the moderators of Jarchives, or any member of the Holy Trinity. In fact, it is only my opinion that this is my opinion. In my opinion, you may choose to believe that my opinion is fact, if in fact you are of the opinion that you are allowed to choose what you believe, which presupposes the opinion that you do in fact exist in the first place - in my humble opinion, of course. It is my opinion that all of my opinions are humble opinions, but this does not indicate a bias on my part against opinions which are, in my opinion, proud opinions.
willb

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Reply with quote  #38 

Quote:
Originally Posted by murlough23
If you can't argue, then by definition, you can't start an argument.

Well, unless you start one inadvertently. But honestly, do any of us ever INTEND to start one?

NP: "Use It", The New Pornographers


I would say that all arguments are started with intent.  The point isn't whether one can or cannot argue.  It is whether one wants to argue.

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murlough23

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Reply with quote  #39 
Quote:
Originally Posted by willb
I would say that all arguments are started with intent.  The point isn't whether one can or cannot argue.  It is whether one wants to argue.


Hang around me long enough and you'll notice that I tend to stumble into them without trying.

__________________
DISCLAIMER: The preceding post was a statement of opinion, and does not reflect the views of the members of Jars of Clay, the moderators of Jarchives, or any member of the Holy Trinity. In fact, it is only my opinion that this is my opinion. In my opinion, you may choose to believe that my opinion is fact, if in fact you are of the opinion that you are allowed to choose what you believe, which presupposes the opinion that you do in fact exist in the first place - in my humble opinion, of course. It is my opinion that all of my opinions are humble opinions, but this does not indicate a bias on my part against opinions which are, in my opinion, proud opinions.
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